The abbot of the Great and Holy Monastery of Vatopedi,
Archimandrite Ephraim, spoke with Elder Sophrony of blessed memory at the Holy
Monastery of St. John the Baptist in Essex, England on 20 September 1992.
From this meeting, one is struck by Elder Sophrony’s
spirituality and ascetic vision, and can appreciate the value of his
contribution to the contemporary life of the Church.
Elder Sophrony: “O Heavenly King and Comforter,
the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things, treasury of
blessings and giver of life, come and abide in us and cleanse us of all that
defileth, and save our souls, oh Thou who are good.” Welcome, holy abbot…
If during our conversation I do anything unusual,
please forgive me. These days I don’t hear or see very well.
Archimandrite Ephraim: Considering your age, you’re
doing very well.
E.S.: Ninety-six years old…I’ll tell them to bring us
the letter from Vatopedi from our archives.
A.E.: Yes, I would like to see it.
E.S.: You know, I’m one of your own.
A.E.: This is a blessing for us.
E.S.: I don’t know. It is a blessing for me, that they
gave me leave with such willingness. And circumstances have shown that God
blessed it. After I left the Holy Mountain, though, I became very ill. I had a
stomach ulcer and I suffered from gastrorrhagia, I was also very poor. I had to
undergo a difficult operation, and they had to remove nearly my whole stomach.
For twelve years I had great difficulty eating. I got something later on, but it’s
fake.
A.E.: It was God’s will, Elder, that you came here.
E.S.: I’ll tell you what, abbot, I’m always afraid to
say that something [from God] happens to me, but it seems to me that nothing
took place according to how I imagined it, but everything came from God.
A.E.: This is what the conscience of the Church also
witnesses to, it seems that it was from God. And that it is a work that has a
history behind it. And [this monastery’s] history has been stamped by God,
that’s what the facts witness to.
E.S.: Yes, but I am only bold enough to say, “Lord
have mercy on me and save me.” Only to a certain extent can I say that it
happened according to the providence of God.
A.E.: Elder, your monastery is an oasis in the desert
[of a culture] of materialism.
E.S.: We’re just…eh! How can I explain it to you…we’re
thankful to those who rule this country, and to the queen, and other officials.
But Orthodox life outside of Greece is difficult. Not all of our thought:
theological, ascetical…connects with the tradition of the West, with the
Catholics and Protestants. But these are the ones who rule this place.
A.E.: From everything I have observed here, Elder, you
live wisely. During the years that you have been here, you have acted with
great discernment, which is why you’ve been able to help people greatly in
hidden ways. And this is a very important thing for a spiritual person.
E.S.: Well…let me tell you. You’re an abbot. And I
was, in a certain way, an abbot. And I was always hung from a thread above the
abyss, shouting at God for everyone, for everything…because nothing happens by
human strength.
A.E.: And I’m sure that you must have had many
difficulties here, Elder.
E.S.: Oh…it’s better not to talk about them…. But even
this, to a certain extent, is a question for us. Recently, I published a book,
a spiritual autobiography [We Shall See Him as He Is].
A.E.: We’ve read it, Elder.
E.S.: Of what interest would a purely factual
biography have been? I only recount spiritual events in this book. And the book
has appeared, somehow, at just the right time.
A.E.: What you have provided is a living witness.
E.S.: I didn’t write a theological text, I only wrote
down my experience, from fear and because I’m bold to say, “Lord have mercy,
Lord save me.” But…I don’t understand…. I became ill many times with fatal
sicknesses and yet I’m still alive. I don’t know why…
A.E.: The Church needs you, which is why God has
extended your life. Your life is a miracle. We are amazed at how you are still
living considering the illnesses you have had and still have. Many spiritual people are amazed that you’re still alive.
E.S.: In 1986 they invented a machine that can
diagnose cancer and they opened me up and found that I had the worst type of
cancer, and they were expecting me to die. There was no chance of an operation,
of radiation therapy, chemotherapy, or something similar. They left me to waste
away…. Six years have passed and I’m living in my seventh year since then, and
I don’t know how. After the stomach operation I had, which completely cut up my
insides, for twelve years I couldn’t eat. Two years after that, I was a bit
better.
A.E.: Your Elder, St. Silouan, wanted you to see his
official canonization by the Church.
E.S.: And I don’t know how the providence of Christ
made it happen. He placed me at the feet of my Elder. The contemporary
spiritual, theological problem concerns the person [πρόσωπο]…I lived
completely by revelation. Revelation reveals that “I am who I am” (Exodus
3:14). If He says, “I am” it means that He is a person. This is why in one of
the chapters in the book to which I referred earlier I note that the word “I”
has great significance. For it expresses the person. God says, “Let Us make man
in Our image, according to Our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). Science cannot say
this. Only revelation can say this. And we need to base ourselves on
revelation, which the Lord never refuted…. So, when I sent the book that is
right behind you to His All Holiness [the Ecumenical Patriarch], I didn’t want
to write a theological textbook, but simply to describe the experience of an
Orthodox monk.
A.E.: This book will be very useful, Elder.
A.E.: People today are confused, I would say very
confused, and a contemporary, unique Orthodox witness is necessary to wake them
up.
E.S.: Yes, I say that, I say it with boldness because
it is a fact. This book is not an intellectual contrivance, I refer to actual
facts.
A.E.: It’s that fruit of divine grace.
E.S.: It’s from this perspective that I was emboldened
to write. Perhaps this autobiography will help someone find the solution to his
or her own personal problem.
A.E.: This book has also helped us on the Holy
Mountain a great deal.
E.S.: [Elder Sophrony speaks, in turn, of the
translation of his book into Modern Greek]…but they have translated it into the
simple language, which cannot express subtle meanings.
A.E.: It doesn’t properly express them, Elder, but you
need to translate it into Modern Greek because young people don’t know Ancient
Greek. You need to make an “Economy,” and give the blessing for your book to be
translated into Modern Greek as well, because unfortunately, most young
people’s language skills are lacking today.
E.S.: So…if it’s in a good language already, what’s
happening with it?
A.E.: It is in a good language, and we want it in this
language. But unfortunately, our young people today are not able to understand
it.
E.S.: And this translation can be made now.
A.E.: Yes, it can be done.
E.S.: I understand, holy abbot. I wonder, though, if
many people understand this book?
A.E.: They don’t understand it in its full depth, but
they may not understand it for another reason, because of its language. In our
monastery, we have quite a few young monks. The young monks don’t know Greek,
even though they are Greek, because unfortunately in Greece various factors
have managed to adulterate the Greek language.
E.S.: What I’m trying to say is that this book, by its
very nature, because the providence of God lead me to Silouan, is about
spiritual practices of the very highest kind. A deeper, more extreme form of
asceticism does not exist. And from this, one can discern that it is from God.
“Keep your mind in hell and despair not….”
A.E.: Your book, St.
Silouan the Athonite, was the reason that many people came to the Holy
Mountain to become monks. And throughout Europe, the book led many heterodox to
Orthodoxy.
E.S.: It can also
help people in Russia, because they have completely lost the ascetic culture.
Seventy years of captivity…
A.E.: A number of
Russian bishops came to Vatopedi and told us that the Russians are pious, but
because of their persecutions they don’t have an inner life.
E.S.: They lost
asceticism and this can help. The Roman Catholics, as I have heard for many
years, from the time I began to do philological studies and have had contact
with them, have said that the Orthodox Church cannot say that it is, “the One,
Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” It isn’t catholic, it’s a part of them,
how can we express it, they [the Orthodox] are ethnic bodies who live with
hatred among themselves.
A.E.:
Unfortunately, that’s what they say.
E.S.: And I… and
I…
A.E.: You prove
the opposite, though.
E.S.: Twelve
monastics, twelve nationalities. Patriarch Athenagoras the First understood
this idea as well. He had a great deal of experience, which was why I was bold
and asked that our holy monastery be a dependency of St. Paul’s Monastery [on
Mount Athos]. And he, through the other Athenagoras (of London), said, “tell
Sophrony to give me…to send me a request for Stavropegic status.”
A.E.: And, that
Stavropegic status was granted so easily, is an indication that God wanted this
monastery to be established. It is also very encouraging that you are directly
connected to the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
E.S.: …and from my
writings, as some people have said, it seems that monasticism is not human, but
is a call from God. And if some read this book, they will say that it is not
monks who choose this path by human means, but it is a call from God. From this
perspective, the book may be theological, the theology, that is to say, that
accompanies the asceticism of the Orthodox ascetic. This is why the references
in the book are only made to Holy Scripture. And thank you very much for your
letter regarding the book. I’ll tell you why. Few people are able to understand
this book. Even on the Holy Mountain, where Silouan lived for nearly half a
century, few understood the spiritual height of the Elder. They had such
fear…but also such boldness for the love of God! He did not speak openly about
his spiritual condition, but hid.
A.E.: They didn’t
understand him…those who lived alongside St. Silouan in the monastery did not
understand him, and some spoke ironically about him. Unfortunately, they did
not understand with whom they were dealing. Which is also why we don’t have his
relics, you took some, though he was such a great Saint.
E.S.: Me, sinner
that I was—lost that is to say, he was very beneficent to me…. He was the
greatest gift of divine providence that God gave to me…
A.E.: Because He
knew that you would make good use of it, that’s why He showed it to you. And,
humanly, you are the reason that St. Silouan’s legacy has shone forth. And he
waits for you in heaven with open arms.
E.S.: I don’t have
him…
A.E.: That’s the
way it is…
E.S.: Why? Why
don’t I have him? Because many have told me that they have prayed to Silouan
and their request was immediately fulfilled. Many times Athonites have also
experienced something similar, his quick response to their prayers suggests to
them that he was a Saint.
[One of the other
monks from Essex then speaks]: Elder, may I say something?
E.S.:
Certainly…but ask the holy abbot.
[Monk]: Your monk,
Fr. Silouan, was at Koutloumousiou the day after the celebration, during
Matins, and a thought came into his head, “I wonder if St. Silouan has the
ability to pray for us?” And as soon as Fr. Silouan thought this, that same
moment, Fr. Athanasius from Simonopetra came up to him and said, “You know, Fr.
Silouan, I have a relic of St. Silouan, which is not only fragrant, but one
time it even gushed myrrh. And Fr. Silouan replied to him, ‘God gave me the
answer almost immediately, because I was just wondering if St. Silouan could
hear our prayers.’”
E.S.: The writing
of his biography was not a human work. It was his own work…and when the
Archbishop of Cyprus ordained our beloved spiritual father, Fr. Zacharias,
hierodeacon, he was asked to give a word. And he prayed to Silouan. He sat and
immediately wrote, what can I tell you? Something that supersedes human
measure. His answer and aid came immediately.
A.E.: And you,
Elder, you must have had personal experience with the boldness of St. Silouan.
E.S.: Let me tell
you, holy abbot, the story of this boldness. On the second day of Pascha
[Monday of Bright Week], in either 1930 or 1931, an educated Russian hermit
monk, he was an engineer, came to visit me in my cell at the Monastery of St.
Panteleimon’s. “Fr. Sophrony, how will we be saved?” I loved this person. He
was a very gentle and sweet person, but also very clever. I prepared him a cup
of tea, gave it to him, and told him, “Stand on the edge of the abyss and when
you feel that it is beyond your strength, break off and have a cup of tea.”
The next day, I
ran into Elder Silouan, with whom I had not yet had personal contact, but I
could sense his spiritual strength. And he said to me,
“Was Fr. Vladimir
with you yesterday?”
I didn’t answer
him, that is, I didn’t say, “yes, he was,” rather I said,
“Perhaps I said
something wrong?”
Silouan answered,
“No, but what you told him was beyond his strength, beyond his measure. Come
and let’s talk.”
That’s how he
called me to speak with him. And because of this phrase, “Stand on the edge of
the abyss and when you don’t have any more strength, rest a little and have a
cup of tea,” our relationship began, our spiritual connection. Afterwards, I
went to the Elder and he taught me regarding, “Keep your mind in hell and
despair not.”
A.E.: This is
great love of wisdom, Elder.
E.S.: Great love
of wisdom…. And you know how I feel, holy abbot? What I suffer because of this?
What did the Lord mean with the phrase, “Keep your mind in hell,” which was for
Silouan the pronounced removal of grace for a whole hour before the appearance
of Christ? He clearly saw his eternal destruction and after this the Lord
appears without any word, He didn’t say anything…for a moment. And when this
happened, without any word, without words, he began to pray for all humanity
and it became a state of being, not a thought, but a state of being. And when
the Lord said, “Keep your mind,” Silouan saw Him. This is why it was only
Silouan who understood the depths of the word regarding this state. For us
self-reproach is appropriate, but not this state. And the conversation, his
talk with Christ, was very, how to say it…very brief. This is what he said:
“I see demons.”
“The proud suffer
from this.”
“But how can I
become humble, Lord?”
“Keep your mind in
hell and despair not.”
And then He left.
A.E.: This is why,
Elder, on Mount Athos Elder Silouan and Elder Joseph the Hesychast are
regarded…
E.S.: Ah! He was a
soldier of the spirit. One of the seven greatest ascetics that I met in my
life.
A.E.: …as the
contemporary Elders who re-introduced, through their experiential way of life,
the teaching of St. Gregory Palamas to Athonite monasticism.
E.S.: Yes, yes…I
had gone two or three times to Elder Joseph, who was still at St. Basil’s. Did
you get to meet him?
A.E.: I didn’t
meet him. I wasn’t found worthy of meeting him.
E.S.: This state
that Silouan experienced is related to the great Fathers of Egypt [the desert
fathers]. Abba Poimen, when they told him that he would go to the heavenly
kingdom, replied, “Believe me brothers, where Satan was thrown, that’s where I’m
going to be thrown.”
A.E.: This is the
spirit of the Fathers…
E.S.: And Anthony
shared the thought of the shoemaker of Alexandria, “Everyone will be saved, and
only I will be damned.” These are states of spiritual struggle.
A.E.:
Self-reproach as a state of being.
E.S.: Right…as a
state.
A.E.: As a
never-ending state.
E.S.: Like
theology. Theology is the content of our prayers. And an example of this
theology is the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great. The whole anaphora is theology
and is expressed through prayer. But then theology comes as a state of being.
John the Theologian, from an academic point of view, was not a theologian, he
says things simply. His theology, however, is a state of being. Whatever he
says becomes dogma for everyone. The fathers around us have great devotion for
the Elder and somehow, somehow they understand what he was all about.
A.E.: About whom,
Elder?
E.S.: About
Silouan…he was one of them. And if I take those to my right, or those to my
left, it’s the same. In fact, this past Monday I encouraged my brethren to
describe in a better way the path of battling against passionate thoughts.
Because one of the sisters has written a book on the upbringing of children and
though what she writes is simple, they are things that don’t come into our
minds. And perhaps it’s necessary to describe the way of battle, for Silouan
speaks of these things, but he does not describe how it happens. When the Lord
fought with Satan in the desert, there we have some kind of an interpretation
of the battle. But what I’m trying to say is that perhaps people need to learn
how they can battle against passionate thoughts? I discuss this topic a bit in
my book on the Elder…but what do you think? In the first book, I explain that
every passionate thought is tied to the earth, with matter, and always takes a
certain form, it’s a certain type. And if our heart or word does not accept
this form, the passion stops. But sometimes, in the beginning, hand to hand
combat needs to take place. People who don’t understand then ask, “But how does
this happen?”
A.E.: You did very
well to analyze the way this battle works, for you have written about these
things in a contemporary manner.
E.S.: I asked my
brethren to try to describe it, but it’s dangerous for one to write, do you
understand? It’s not an easy thing. This problem needs to be expressed in some
way.
A.E.: This is a
very subtle issue, Elder.
E.S.: Silouan
would say, of course he was without passion, “If a thought upsets us, we are
free to discard this thought and to focus our attention on something else.” He
was able to do this; other people, however, are like slaves to passionate
thoughts.
A.E.: Many times,
a passionate thought makes our life a living hell.
E.S.: Yes, and it
turns our whole being upside down…
A.E.: And it’s at
a high price that the Fathers lend us their wisdom, Elder.
E.S.: Yes…Silouan
says that we are free to focus our attention on something else, so that
captivity to the passionate thought, for him, is not a real problem. The bad
thought comes and he thinks of other things. Theoretically, as Silouan says,
this is simple. In action, however, and for us untrained ones, it is very
difficult. Truly, the passionate thought sticks and torments, such that the
combat is as if fighting hand to hand with Satan. I am very grateful to God
that He saw me fit to become a monk on the Holy Mountain. I was there for twenty-two years.
A.E.: And we are
very grateful to God that we were able to meet you today. [Elder Sophrony does
not answer. Some monk asked, “Did you not hear, or did you not want to hear?”]
E.S.: I didn’t
hear…. Unfortunately, the West in this respect is undeveloped. They study
theology from books.
A.E.: With the
intellect…
E.S.: Yes. But the
only study that enables us to sense what God is like, is the ascetic life
according to the commandments of the Gospel. When our life is lived according
to the will of God, then we understand that there cannot be a difference
between the commandments and the mind of God Himself. When we think according
to the commandments, then our mind gets used to thinking as God Himself thinks.
And regarding theosis, they say: but what is theosis? With obedience to the
abbot from the beginning, one’s will is cut off, then in obedience to the
Gospel commandments one reaches this state. We do small things but the results
must become great. Through obedience we enter into the life of divine Being. We
have good descriptions of this in the writings of St. Nicodemus the Athonite.
A.E.: He was a
great Saint. St. Nicodemus described the ascetic, neptic life in detail.
E.S.: Yes…you know
that we have the official proclamation of Silouan’s canonization framed, in the
same kind of frame that they use in the Holy Community of the Holy Mountain.
A.E.: When the official Patriarchal proclamation came to the Community, for St. Silouan’s inclusion in the official list of Saints of the Orthodox Church, they sent us a copy for our archives, and they sent one to all of the monasteries of the Holy Mountain. Because the Saint was an Athonite…
E.S.: And I’m a
Vatopedinos…and I’m a Vatopedinos!
A.E.:
Idiorhythmic, however. You’re an idiorhythmic Vatopedinos!
E.S.: Not
idiorhythmic, because I was at St. Andrew’s Skete, which was a coenobium. [At
this point, the fathers begin to laugh.] They’re laughing…
A.E.: They’re
happy. They’re not laughing, Elder, they’re happy!
E.S.: Yes, and I
love them. To think and to live the way they do, in the present state of
Europe, is a great thing. While in Greece, the whole atmosphere is full of
faith, of theology, of asceticism.
A.E.: Greece is
also going through a crisis right now. The European, rationalistic way of life
has been introduced to Greece, and it’s going through a spiritual crisis.
E.S.: We’ll see.
Because recently, great ascetics have reposed…no one can say that Greece is
dead. It is very much alive.
A.E.: It is alive,
in one sense, but it is in danger from the secular and rationalistic spirit of
the West, and we are greatly distressed. We are concerned for Greece.
E.S.: Fair enough,
but don’t you think we’ll be victorious?
A.E.: Yes, we
believe that. But you know, Elder, we are also concerned about the Holy Mountain.
E.S.: In what way?
A.E.: Because, you
see, the young monks that come are used to comfortable living and do not
acclimatize easily to the ascetic tradition of the place.
E.S.: If that’s
the case, then you will arrange their asceticism according to their capabilities,
in particular the study of the past so that they can be freed of their secular
ideas, and rather study the lives of the holy Fathers and the Apostles. You
understand what I’m trying to say…if that is where their thoughts are, they
will not spend time with the passions. Remember the example from the Gerontikon.
There was a grace-filled ascetic who had a secular education and had been very
wealthy. When another ascetic visited him, a person that had been a poor
shepherd in the world, he saw the bed of the grace-filled ascetic and how he
lived comfortably, and he was scandalized. When, however, he learned that in
the world he had lived a luxurious life, with great wealth, he accused himself
and confessed that the wealthy man was now living ascetically, while he himself
was living comfortably.
A.E.: Yes, yes I
remember that story.
E.S.: When I was a
spiritual father at Simonopetra, the older monks would complain about the
younger monks, and the younger monks complained about the older monks. I would
say to the older monks, “From where did you receive these children?” “From the
world.” “What did they learn there? How did they live?”
A.E.: That’s the
way it is.
E.S.: Don’t expect
them to become perfect right away. I have told others, as well, that when they
learn things from the world, they are living in sin. They need to free
themselves through asceticism. This is how I tried to make them understand the
need for patience. Now, holy abbot, let’s wrap this up, because the service
will begin. We were very glad that you wanted to come, and that I had the
chance to see my abbot.
A.E.: Let it be
blessed, Elder. I bring to you the respects of my Elder, who asks that you
remember him and pray for him.
[Another monk asks
Elder Sophrony]: Do you remember Elder Joseph, who came here two years ago?
E.S.: Yes, yes of
course…. We need to finish, though…tomorrow we’re celebrating the consecration.
You know, for some Saints and great teachers of the Church, there is no
service, but for Silouan, on the Holy Mountain there are four.
A.E.: Silouan is a
great Saint.
E.S.: For me, I
have written about it…for me he is truly great.
A.E.: For you, he
is the greatest.
E.S.: For me, he is great…
E.S.: For me, he is great…
A.E.: Which Saints
have you included in the consecration? Which relics?
[Another monk responds]:
We included the two Theodores (the martyrs) and the venerable Silouan.
A.E.: Through the
prayers of our holy Father, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us.
[All together]:
Amen!
A.E.: Thank you,
Elder.
E.S.: God seldom
allows ascetics to meet, and that’s the way it happened. This was precisely the
reason…now…how did you know it?
A.E.: I didn’t
understand your last sentence. How did I know what, Elder?
E.S.: That ours
would be a meeting in the Holy Spirit.
CONVERSATION