We continue to publish the materials of Spas TV
program My Path To God, where Priest George Maximov interviews people who
converted to Orthodoxy from various non-Orthodox denominations. The
guest of today’s program is the Orthodox Priest Thomas Dietz. Father Thomas, a
German raised as Lutheran, converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism. He will
tell us about the driving force behind his spiritual quests and the
importance of dedicated insistence upon the Truth. We will also learn the
answers to such questions as “Should we say in conversations with members of
other denominations that their teachings are heretical?” and “What should our
attitude be toward the Branch Theory?”
Father George Maximov: Hello.
You’re watching My Path To God. The guest of today’s program is Priest Thomas
Dietz. We all know that during the past 20 years many people from our country
emigrated to the West. Father Thomas did the opposite and immigrated to Russia
from Germany. He has been serving as a Russian Orthodox priest in Moscow for
many years now. Father Thomas, how did your journey to God begin?
Father Thomas Dietz: Thank
you, Father George. Let’s start with my childhood. I was raised in a typical
German Lutheran family. Only my father was a
believer; my mother was far from being religious even though her grandfather
was a pastor. So, the first foundation of my faith was laid by my father. He
used to read the Gospel to us on Sundays and took us to a Lutheran church in a
Munich suburb where we lived. When I was 10-12 years old, I had a childlike
faith that I cherished, even though at times my peers made fun of me because of
it. The social environment in Germany is very secular… Later, as I grew, I lost
that faith, which was typical for Germans. I re-gained it when I was listening
to a catechesis in a Roman Catholic church.
Father George: So you
converted from Lutheranism to Catholicism?
Father Thomas: Yes. I
attended Catholic classes for several years as a Lutheran, and then decided to
join them. I was 23 at that time.
Father George: What
was your motivation for regaining your faith and deciding to convert? I was
wondering, “Why should people be sad when they address God? What is wrong
here?”
Father Thomas: You
can say that as a Protestant from a Lutheran family, I was quite skeptical
about Church when I grew up. There were many reasons for that. The main one
probably had something to do with my parents. I remember that when my father
was praying before meals at home, he was always very sad. As a young man, I was
always wondering, “Why should people be sad when they address God? What is
wrong here?” In Catholicism, the situation was reverse. I saw many jovial
Catholics who were sincerely thankful to God for their newly found faith. These
people found a new way of life in Catholicism, the way of living as a
community. They were also very inclined toward missionary work. This joy,
community-based way of life and, you can say, love between the faithful in the
Catholic communities won me over.
It
should be noted that I became Catholic in the Neocatechumenate. This movement
is not very well-known in Russia, but it is nevertheless present here. It is
one of so-called spiritual movements of modern Catholicism. I spent several
years in this movement and felt that I should fully join the Catholic Church to
partake of the Sacraments and build my life this way. I enthusiastically participated in the life of the
Catholic Church, became a catechist, went on many pilgrimages to Rome, worked
in the Neocatechumenal mission in West Berlin and, later in Hungary, and got
admitted to a seminary school.
Father
George: As far as I know,
many things in Catholicism and Orthodoxy are unusual for Protestants. For
example, veneration of the Mother of God, images of
saints, etc. Maybe these things are not as pronounced in Lutheranism as in
other Protestant beliefs, but you probably had to overcome your aversion. Or
did it occur naturally during catechization?
Father Thomas: It
took some time. For a Protestant, venerating the Mother of God and the
existence of Pope were, of course, a stumbling block. I had to get used to it.
I remember that being among the masses of people during my first pilgrimage to
Rome was objectionable to me. At that time, it seemed to me an excessive
communality, but I got used to it. I believed that venerating the Mother of God
was essential for the faith and piety. I also appreciated the Catholic
advantage of having clergy, which the Lutherans lack. I saw that there was the
patristic heritage established by Christ to give us guidance. So in these
communities I got used to many aspects that we have in Orthodoxy, such as
veneration of the Mother of God, clergy, bishops and the Sacred Tradition, even
though Catholics have it in a different form.
Father George: How
many years were you in the Catholic Church?
Father Thomas: Eighteen
years, if you count from the first time I converted till the time that I quit.
Father George: This
is quite a long time. Considering the reasons that got you there, such as
discovering communal life and meeting caring and joyful people who share their
joy with each other, I should ask you what made you doubt Catholicism, continue
your quest and discover Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy is not well known in the West, is
it?
I
missed the reliable and solid foundation of faith.
Father Thomas: That’s
right. When I became Catholic, I basically didn’t know anything about
Orthodoxy. For me it was a blank space on the map of religions. Only after a
while I learned that there was Orthodoxy, a religion where the Sacred Tradition
played an important role. However, during almost all of this long period of my
life, I was confident that the Catholic dogmas were right. I didn’t doubt that
the papacy was established by Christ Himself or that the Pope occupied his
rightful place. However, during all the time that I spent in Catholicism, I had
a feeling that something was missing. I missed the reliable and solid
foundation of faith, the foundation that I knew would support me and never
collapse. It was something bigger than a good attitude toward people and community
and other things that basically are ephemeral. And God steered me in a way that
made me more interested in Orthodoxy.
I
started studying Russian fairly early, when I was 24 and lived in West Berlin.
I was not admitted to the University of Berlin, so I couldn’t continue my
architecture studies that I started in Munich. Frustrated, I went to the
nearest bookstore and bought a teach-yourself Russian guide because I felt that
it would be important for me.
Father George: Was
learning the language easy?
Father
Thomas: The chances of mastering the language seemed very slim to me, but
I didn’t give up and soon Russian words became the embodiment of the beauty of
the human speech for me. However, I read about Orthodoxy mostly in German. When
I learned about the life of the Orthodox Church during Communism, about
persecution and martyrdom, I got very interested and read everything on
Orthodoxy that was available in German.
I read
the works of Silouan of Athos, Theophan the Recluse, and the Life of John of
Kronstadt
Then I
started reading the works of holy fathers, mostly the holy fathers of Russian
Orthodoxy. I read the works of Silouan of Mt. Athos, exegesis of some works of
Theophan the Recluse, and the Life of St. John of Kronstadt. All of these were
in German. The more I read, the more I was captivated. This caused some inner
conflict in me, as Catholics do not consider this an important aspect of
spiritual growth. They said, “We have all of that too. What are you looking for
there?” But I couldn’t find this in Catholicism. I couldn’t find that depth and
determination of spiritual life, that consistency, that foundation. The
charismatic aspect is very important in Catholic spiritual teachings. They call
it charisma and they do have very charismatic leaders. They can talk
exuberantly about God for two hours and gather 100,000 people. I attended such
meetings many times. During the meetings, among other things, they call people
to join the clergy and thousands of young people decide to become Catholic
priests. However, I found that this charismatic approach lacks reliability on
the foundation of faith in the Church. I found this reliability and deep roots
of the Sacred Tradition of the Church in the works of the holy fathers of
Orthodoxy, especially the holy fathers of recent times, such as St. John of
Kronstadt, St. Silhouan of Mt. Athos and St. Theophan the Recluse, and in the
works of the new martyrs of the Russian Church. This became a kind of rock for
me—the rock where I found shelter when I had some doubts about Catholicism or
when I was simply bored.
I said,
“God, lead me to where I must go.”
Father Thomas: It
did. I was cautious about getting too close to Orthodoxy, fearing to lose my
Catholic faith, and prayed to the Mother of God to help me keep my faith. I
should say that I was admitted to the Catholic seminary and understood that if
I want to become a Catholic priest, eventually I’d have to abandon my pull
towards Orthodoxy. But do I want to? What is God’s will? I decided to test
myself by discarding everything that was related to Russia and Orthodoxy,
including all my study guides, books, audio recordings and even dictionaries. I
had a whole library. I packed everything and gave it all away. Distanced myself
from it. I said, “God, please lead me to where I must go.” I lived like that
for several years.
I
studied at the seminary and every year it became more difficult. I didn’t feel
that I still had that grace that a monk or a celibate priest needed, although I
knew that celibacy was a mandatory requirement for becoming a Catholic priest.
Even my desire to become a priest began to wane and eventually I had such a
deep spiritual crisis that Kiko Argüello, my spiritual guide and rector, who
was also the head of the Neocatechumenate movement, had to send me home saying,
“You can’t stay here. Please go home, find yourself a girlfriend, do whatever
you want, start working. You can't stay here. We don’t know where God is
leading you to, but please leave.” These were the words I needed to hear. This
was God’s answer to my prayer.
I went
home to Munich and resumed working as an architect. The same summer, I went to
Russia looking for a spouse. Naturally, this trip wasn’t successful. Thank God
for that. After my return, I started attending services in a Russian church in
Munich.
Father George:
There are many Orthodox churches in major German cities. There are churches
under the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople, Russian
Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), the Moscow Patriarchate as well as
Bulgarian, Serbian and Romanian churches. What made you choose the Russian
Orthodox Church Outside of Russia? Was it simply because it was the nearest
church? Or was it something more serious?
Father Thomas: It
wasn’t the nearest church. The nearest to me was a Serbian church. It was the
most beautiful building. But I didn't speak Serbian. For Germans interested in
Orthodoxy, knowing the language of a certain branch of the Orthodox Church is a
great help. Some people know Bulgarian, some people know Greek. All these
churches in Munich have German parishioners and, of course, they try to master
the language so that they can better participate in the services. I knew some
Russian, even though I couldn’t speak very well, but there were things that I
understood. So I went to ROCOR because their church was near and because it was
a big beautiful church. The Moscow Patriarchate did not have that. In ROCOR,
even the bishop was German. They did a lot for the German parishioners. They
still do. The Bishop held monthly classes on Orthodox dogmatic theology for
Germans in his monastery. Once a month they held meetings in parishioners’
homes and the Bishop told them about Orthodox life and faith. This, of course,
was very helpful. They also had 2-3 day workshops on Orthodoxy in German. I
started going there more frequently, got acquainted with the bishop, stayed for
meals after the Liturgy and tried to communicate with people in both German and
Russian. It was a very friendly community where everyone knew everyone.
Everything was great. The only problem was that I still was a non-Russian and
felt a little bit left out. I think this problem exists in all Russian churches
in other countries, because the services are in Russian and Church
Slavonic. The Church cannot be missionary to the full extent, if
only one Liturgy per month is performed in German.
Father George: What
helped you to overcome that feeling of certain estrangement from the local
Orthodox community that was oriented toward a different nation?
Father Thomas: Mostly
it was Bishop Mark of Berlin. Father Nikolai Artemov,
too. He was born and raised in Germany, so he could help us in many ways. He
held Church Slavonic classes for us. There was also a German priest, which was
a sign for me – I understood that nationality was not an obstacle, even to
being ordained.
It is
important to understand that Catholic Church is not a sister church, but a
branch church that broke away from Orthodoxy.
Dogmatic theology and
understanding the dogmatic teachings of the Orthodox Church were especially
helpful. I have to tell you about this because even nowadays there is a strong
tendency among Orthodox people in Russia to believe that basically there is not
much difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. This is not true. The difference
between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is much greater than the difference between
Protestantism and Catholicism. Conversion from Catholicism to Orthodoxy is much
more difficult. Why? Because dogmatically there is a huge gap. What helped me
was that I really liked the ecclesiology, the theological study of the Church.
Here the influence of the ROCOR was very important. In the ROCOR they teach
that the Catholic Church is not a sister church, but a branch church that broke
away from Orthodoxy. It was Orthodox at some point but then stopped being
Orthodox because they introduced a teaching that cannot be accepted by
Orthodoxy, and as such is considered heretical for us. But we have a strong
tendency to level everything and make everything look equal!
Today
Catholics are not inclined to give in. They hold their own ground, despite
declaring ecumenism
When we
read the works of holy fathers, we see that it is not so at all. For example,
St. Justin (Popović) clearly said that we adopt canons that prohibit praying
together with heretics and we do not accept Catholics. It is logical. Imagine
what would happen if the Bulgarian Church put forth a thesis about its primacy
and absolute supremacy in the Church. What would we think about that?
Naturally, we’d think that this was the beginning of heresy. With Catholics,
this heresy took root and became an integral part of their belief system.
Nowadays, Catholics are even less inclined to give in than 50 or 100 years ago.
They hold their own ground. The Second Vatican Council changed nothing in this
respect. Despite declaring ecumenism, the Catholics firmly insist on their
points of view.
Father George: This
statement is very important for our times. Especially because many people today
think that when we meet a person who has opposing views, we must somehow soften
our words, stay away from the issues that separate us and emphasize the things
we have in common. Many people subconsciously believe that if they hold their
ground while discussing the questions of faith, it would push their opponents
away. But in your example, the determination of that Orthodox community where
you started your journey in fact strengthened your desire to become Orthodox
even more.
Speaking
with members of different denominations, we must say that their teachings are
heretical.
Father Thomas: Indeed,
the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia opened the door to Orthodoxy for
me. I don’t think I would have become Orthodox in the Greek Church, that had a
very ecumenical approach in Germany, just like the Moscow Patriarchate at that
time. We Orthodox have a mission to the Catholics. Our mission is to pray, act,
and talk to them so that they would see the true light of Orthodoxy that they
lack. This is what we should talk about. If we never tell them that some parts
of their teaching are wrong and that according to Orthodox views they are
heretics, how could they see that they are wrong? How could they acknowledge
that in the course of history they made a mistake and succumbed to the
temptation of reinterpreting and distorting the Sacred Tradition that we
received from our fathers? This must be said. We should only think about “how
to say it?”, rather than “should we say it?” And of course we should be polite;
we have to respect our each other.
Father George: We
have to preach with love. The experience shows that whatever is said with love
does not offend others. As truth and love go side by side, it is the best way
to preach.
Father Thomas: I
agree, Father George. I should add that this discussion must include the word
“heresy” in one form or another. When we use this word in discussions with
members of other denominations, we are not labeling these confessions, damning
them or pronouncing anathema to them. We must use this term to demonstrate
where the boundaries of the Church are. For those who do not believe in
Orthodoxy, our Church, we must pinpoint the problem area, that decaying wound,
that moment where Catholics and Protestants lost the spiritual grace and where
they are now trying to compensate that loss with their charismatic approaches,
false exaltation or constant insistence on renewal and returning to their
roots. In Orthodoxy, the roots were kept intact throughout history. They are
easily accessible to everybody.
Father George: When
you still considered yourself a Catholic, how did you feel about this firm
position stating that the Catholic Church fell into heresy?
The
uncompromising position of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia toward
the members of other denominations opened the door to Orthodoxy for me.
Father Thomas: This
was a totally unexpected opinion for me. The thing is that Catholics support
the Branch Theory that was condemned by our Synod of Bishops in 2000. According
to Catholics, there are no essential differences between Orthodoxy and
Catholicism in terms of the belief system. At first, I was in doubt and even
wondered if members of the ROCOR were fanatics. How can they say that Catholic
faith is flawed, if a billion people profess it? Then I learned that the other
Orthodox churches teach the same, but they are more diplomatic about it. The
uncompromising position of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia toward
the members of other denominations opened the door to Orthodoxy for me and I am
very grateful for it. When I understood the fallacy of the teaching about the
Pope’s primacy, it was as if the entire foundation of Catholicism collapsed in
my mind. And when I saw that Orthodoxy does not deviate from the Sacred
Tradition and truly preserves it in its entirety, I became Orthodox.
Father George: Some
people in the West who have converted to Orthodoxy told me that understanding
that their ancestors were also members of Orthodox Church at some point was an
eye-opener and, to some extent, an incentive for them. Although Orthodoxy in
the West is primarily believed to be the religion of immigrants from Eastern
Europe, at some point my opponents understood that the ancient saints who lived
on their land had the same belief system as the Orthodox Church and they did
not distort the Truth. Did it help in your case? Do you think can this help
people in the West today who encounter the same questions as you did?
Communication
is not possible until the Western Church repents and returns to those dogmas
that the Orthodoxy preserved without distortion.
Father Thomas: It
is very important to understand that prior to the great schism of 1054, there
was one Orthodox Church that included the Roman Church. I think that the
correct perception of the Church is very important for development of the
Christian way of thinking. I remember that when I was a Catholic and was only
approaching Orthodoxy, attending a ROCOR parish in
Munich, I was puzzled when they said that there was a time when the Roman
Catholic Church was Orthodox. What did they mean by that? It sounded like a
paradox to me. Little by little, I understood that the Western Church indeed
was cut off from Orthodoxy. It had to be said that communication wouldn’t be
possible until the Western Church repents and returns to the dogmas that the
Eastern Churches preserved without distortion. It is a very important aspect,
because that way we steer away from the way of thinking that the Roman Church
promulgates, stating that Catholicism and Orthodoxy, i.e. the Western Church
and the Eastern Church, are parts of one whole. Or as Pope John Paul II liked
to say, that these Churches are two parts of one set of lungs. It used to be
like that at some point—in the first millennium, but unfortunately it is no
longer so. We need to pray and act to return to what we had and lost. This is
the mission of Orthodoxy in the West. And, of course, I must persuade our own
parishioners who, I think, do not always clearly understand this. There are
Orthodox people who think that we can pray together with Catholics and that
they are our brethren, or the least of our brethren.
Father George: Of
course, if people who call themselves Orthodox think that there is no
difference between the Orthodox Church and Catholic, Monophysite, or Protestant
Churches, this is a mistake often caused by ignorance. This also happens
because people perceive the Church as some national club that they go to simply
because they belong to a certain nation. This, of course, is wrong, because the
Church is the ark of salvation that God created and invited people from all
nations.
Father
Thomas, in your opinion, what difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is
the most important?
Father Thomas: Papal
primacy. We are used to considering the issue of primacy of Peter and his
service as an isolated fact, as if this teaching applies only to administration
and jurisdiction. However, it also affects the spiritual life of people in
Catholic Church. The fact that the Pope is considered to be infallible is a
distortion of the Sacred Tradition for us Orthodox people. This is not
acceptable for Orthodoxy as not a single person is infallible. Acceptance of
infallibility is related to the issue of obedience. An infallible person, even
if he is infallible only in the questions of faith, must be unconditionally
obeyed. All stages of the Catholic hierarchy are based on this perception.
Father George: Coming
back to your story, I’d like to ask you about your friends’ and relatives’
reaction to your choice. Did they understand it? Did anybody follow you?We
should cherish the Truth more than people’s traditions.
Father Thomas: They
had different reactions. My Catholic friends of course were very surprised.
They didn’t think that I was capable of making such a step, which meant losing
all my brethren, almost all my friends, in one blow. They consider such
conversion to be an apostasy. As to my parents and brothers, there were
different reactions. One of my brothers is a Pentecostal in a Brazilian Church
in Munich. It is well known what they think about Orthodoxy. They believe that
we are nearly idol worshipers. The classic Protestants, though, such as
Lutherans, are more likely to understand this step, because at some point they
too had to protest against Rome. That is why they can be understanding about
it, even though personally they don’t consider such conversion possible,
because of the huge cultural gap between the West and the East. You need to get
used to Orthodoxy and fall in love with it. You need to love the life based on
serving God. I wish every Catholic and Protestant would step on that path,
discover Orthodoxy and cherish the Truth more than people’s traditions.
Father George: Thank
you very much for your story, Father Thomas.
Fr. Thomas
Dietz was interviewed by Fr. George Maximov
Translation by Talyb
Samedov
Source: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/87231.htm
CONVERSATION